-By Satyajit Mishra

No brides or grooms available for "Karan" cast in orissa

you may come across pattanaiks, mohantys or kanungos across orissa. they are basically karan casts who are very much familiar and appears omni present in the state as the incumbent CM, Mr Janaki Pattanaik, CM for 16 years or the legendary Biju Pattanaik all belong to this caste. But similar to the Parsi community in Mumbai, this cast is in a down sliding mode atleast in the bridal bazzar there is a heavy shortage of karan candidates of both the genders.

Mr. Shankar Dash, who hails fro Jajpur and living in Bhubaneswar for last 16 years and a marriage mediator by proffessin, reveals that karan candidates are very few at his disposal unlike khandayat, Brahmin or Teli cast candidates. Most of the Karan brides are aged and there is not a single suitable match for them. Most of the karan boys who were in his diary earlier opted for love marriage in other castes so far.

Suna sansar, a reputed marriage bureau in Bhubaneswar reveals the same data. as there is a scarcity of such candidates, now the karan parents opt for intercaste marriage to their nearest cast, the khandayats.

all have a common but firm opinion that intercaste marriage is the only option to get rid of this dangerous problem.

So far there is no population strata availiable about this caste. karans are mostly centered in Khurdha, jagatsinghpur, cuttack and puri district where as they are sprinkled across the state in bits and scraps. Known for their enterprising skills karans are placed highly in every sectors of the state. But gauging by their downsizing number, our CM should marry a karan girl and be an agent to solve the problem, the sceptics believe.  

Friends,

Truth is one, there is no second to it. even if there is is no data to back the truth still the truth remains as such. ask any marriage bureaus or the mediators in orissa who are long dealing with suitable candidates, they will be equivocal that its far more difficult to find a suitable karan match. THE REASONS :their numbers are vey few ,their is really a shortage of candidates within that age group.

 I have surveyed it across BBSR during my stay here and publish this article. so far as my brush up with constitution of India is concerned, no way it flouts the fundamental rights. so i request the group members to shun dogmatic ideas and welcome the views which may be bitter, but works towards a progressive objective. If my survey doesn't coincide with any data. this will not harm anyone, but think, by finding some ways we may save this cast. we will not let them turn in to another parsi community. so  I think we should start a healthy debate on intercaste marriage.

-By Brahmin

Intercaste marriage causes infertility

A cross-national study of the effect of intercaste marriage on
fertility in India and the United States.

The purpose of this study was 1) to determine the effects of intercaste
marriages on fertility in India (high-low caste marriage) and the
United States (white-black marriage); and 2) to compare the demographic
characteristics of intercaste married couples in India and the United
States. The sample consisted of 366 intercaste and intracaste married
couples in India and the U.S. The data revealed that in both countries
intercaste married couples had a significantly lower number of children
than intracaste married couples. As between Brahmin or Chamar subcaste
in India and as between whites and whites and between blacks and blacks
in the U.S. The main conclusion was that intercaste marriages produced
fewer children than intracaste marriages

From Gita – Gita Bans Inter caste Marriages ??

"By overthrow of houses perisheth
Their sweet continuous household piety,
And- rites neglected, piety extinct-
Enters impiety upon that home;
Its women grow unwomaned, whence there spring
Mad passions, and the mingling-up of castes,
Sending a Hell-ward road that family,
And who so wrought its doom by wicked wrath.
Nay, and the souls of honoured ancestors
Fall from their place of peace, being bereft
Of funeral-cakes and the wan death-water.
So teach our holy hymns."

The words Kula Dharma and Jaati Dharma and Varna-Shankara(Hybrid)
clearly mentioned in Gita.It says Inter-Caste marriage leads to hell.

Indian Census Findings

In terms of growth of different religious communities, Hindus showed a
decline over the previous decade, their population growing by 20%
during 1991 and 2001 as compared to 22.8% during 1981-91.

Muslim Population Catching Up Fast
The Muslim population grew by 29.3% during 1991-2001, compared to 32.9%
during 1981-91. According to India's right-wing Hindu organization
Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), if the current trend continues, the
population of Muslims in India would equal that of the Hindus by 2051.

-By T.K.Mahapatra

The size of population studied seems to be  less to derive at any authenticated  conclusion.However this requires further study and evaluation  

-By Sahadeva Sahoo

Geeta starts on demeaning womanhood. Arjun laid down arms first as he said women get polluted in absence of elders whom he will kill if war is fought. Krishna explains it is the dharma (dharma here does not mean religion, it means a caste oriented profession) of Kshatriyas to fight for one's rights. Geeta eulogises a war on disputes over property, property happens to be a kingdom.

Read Chapter 9 stanza 33 which praises Brahmin and Kings (Kshatriyas) and the earlier stanza 32 which equates women with sudras and vaishyas who are of lower birth (papayonaya - born of sinful womb). How can Srikrishna say it ignoring that he is born of a woman?

No need to cite examples of interpolations made into the Geeta. Geeta is a part of the Mahabharat which eulogises intercaste marriages of Pandava brothers and valour of their progenies.

 By Jibanendra Mahanty

LET US PROMOTE INTER CASTE MARRIAGES AMONGST ORIYAS  

Dear Shri Mishra,

If my reading  is right, I think you  are concerned about the dwindling
population of Oriya Karans and their marriage problems. I also get the
impression that you are  a Votary of Inter-Caste Marriages and intend to
encourage Inter-caste marraiges in Orissa. Certainly these are very noble
thinking, and you deserve appreciation.

As a good solution to save the KARANS,  to start with,  we may  encourage
inter caste marriages amongst Oriya Brahmin and Karan  candidates, to
exploit the strong traits  of both the  forward thinking  Communities.

From my own experience, I have come across  Social workers, Senior Defence
personnel and highly educated technocrats ( with a lot of Degrees)  who
deliver good  impressive lectures on Inter-Caste marriages to the Public,
but when their own time comes for selecting a Bride or Groom, they go back
to the age old orthodox domain, insisting upon Caste,Gothra, H'cope, minm
age difference of FIVE years (bride shd be younger than the Groom by minm 5
years), etc. etc. Thus they preach, which they do not practise, and vice
versa.

Perhaps there is  a need for Social Reform in this direction, to achieve
better social harmony and unity, and also to save the enterprising Karan
Community.

Thanks,

J.N.Mahanty

-By Sreejit Mahanty

I respect the personal views of some of the members here. We tend to forget that in the vedic era caste was determined on the basis of profession and conduct. Further, the view that marriage must be solemnised between persons of the same caste has a deeper social meaning to it. However, in the present times all those factors stand diluted. There is no yardstick to distinguish between a sudra or a brahmin apart from their surname. In these changed circumstances social norms must change. Therefore, it is a person's individual right to chose his or her life partner. People who want to follow traditions are free to follow what they believe to be right. Similarly in case of two persons who prefer not to follow these traditions there should not be any opposition.

-By Manoj Padhi

I agree with Mr. Mohanty's version that  "it is a person's individual right to chose his or her life partner". The Rejection of "Karna" by Draupadi in Mahabharata is such an example. Even though Karna was a King and possesses all qualifications , his caste played the most vital factor for his rejection.

Another way what  is noticed is the body odour of  certain caste people, e.g. take case of fisher man or some specific village telegu dominated areas. They don't care of cleanliness and little bit fashion. So when a bride/groom of upper caste looking for such a case sets his mind that the whole community's body odour is the same. So in order to promote such events, lower caste people must be educated enough to live a simple but well mannered and hygienic life. This is my thought after seeing situation of southern part of Orissa and staying in a Village for about 12 years where streets are divided based on caste/community.

Only thing I am concerned about the survey which says, Inter caste marriage will have less kids - this will frighten people opting for it as what if ZERO kids. So people planning for such events get validate the survey results in their own interest.

-By Umashankar Das

Fertility is typically based on sociological characteristics. If a survey says that intercaste marriage breeds infertility i would like to question the sample size of the survey.

Secondly, this survey mentions that this was done in USA. Now, where did caste come in such a survey? It must talk about multi-ethnic groups.

Marriage is a question of prefernce, but the sad part is promoting such surveys tends to influence people into believing that such facts are true, but the reality would be something else.

Multi-ethnic societies are absolute realities in the progression of civilisation. I will make a case study for you.

Commonly, if you look at europeans they would be considered the so-called White people. But if you look at Europe, people from Southern europe display a very different tendency in terms of looks. Most Italians, spaniards, protuguese are typically having BLACK hair,

But if you go to the Northen part of europe, countries like Denmark,sweden,Norway , Germany most people would typically be blondes. The reason why people from southern Europe look different is because of Intermixing of these people with Asians from Central ASia and Middle east. for reference please search about Moors etc.

Even certain East European countries boast of similar lineage. If you remember the name of Attila the Hun , he was an invader from Central Asia who attacked Eatsern europe, His people settled in Hungary and current Turkey. Hungarians typically look multi-ethnic.

These facts should prove that Multi-ethnic does not promote infertility. They are a natural progression in civilization.

Another aspect is that a fisherman's son studies in college and becomes a engineer, then he wont smell like a fisherman. The problem is that from childhood we seem to teach our children, that person is a lower-caste and such similar stuff. This is why people find it difficult to get married because of lack of prospective candidates in their caste.

Until we have attitude changes such problems will continue. Solving cleaniness issue will not make any difference, since in my opinion the most unclean people i know of are the Puri pandas who spit on the Roads of Puri. Cleaniness is not a question of the caste but that of civic behavior which is a social problem.

-By Sandip Dasverma

Dear All:
This is regarding the inter caste marriage.
The survey most likely does not exist as even though challenged Mr. Brahman has not been able to present any credible reference. In these days of Internet - any information can be googled. Any research paper that can't be googled, can be referenced by the name of the magazine or research institution. If not it is most likely fictitious, thus junk. If not we should use it for family planning purposes as has already been humorously suggested by some one earlier. But seriously - this might rationally happen as intercaste marriage usually involves liberated men and women - who have been liberated by higher education. And it is a well known fact that family size is inversely proportional to the level of education, all over the world.
Regarding Gita as a justification of caste. The lines quoted by Mr. Brahman, I have read thoroughly many years back. We have to take it with proper perspective and environment.
Gita also says that Universe is made up of 5 elements - Earth, Sky, Air, Water and Fire. We now know that there are no such elements. Thus it is not - it is made up of 112 plus elements. We have to understand that that was the level of human knowledge at that time of history.
Gita states that if lower caste men, marry upper caste men(not the reverse) - basterds are born(jayate barna sankara). Interesting is not it? However in Mahabharata itself - Pandava and Kaurabas are only 3/4th Khatriya and nothing to do with "Chandra bansa" or lineage.
Because widower King Santanu fell in love with Satyabati, daughter of a fisher man whom he married. Since she wanted her sons to be king as a condition of marriage, Vishma vowed to remain celibate. The two sons out of this marriage could not produce children. So Rishi Vyas(1/2 non Khyatriya), who was also the elder son of Satyabati was invited to impregnate their wives(khatriya). The result were the two brothers Dhritarastra and Pandu of the queens.
And then again  Kunti or Madri bearing their children which had nothing to do with the so called blood of "Chandra bansa" or moon clan. If you carefully read Mahabharata thus, with a modern 21st century mind, you will find scandal after scandal.
Be it as it may.
Actually, I think Mahabharata depicts the complexity of the real world and we have to take it in that spirit. It does not matter how one is born but if he should persevere upward mobility is possible, this has been shown in Mahabharata - Satyabati a fisher woman becomes queen of Ayodhya- (Manoj babu may not like the smell but don't even dare to complain - she is the queen - she decides not you - just kidding). And Karna becomes a king, while known to be a son of a row man, ( secret of his birth not known yet).
So what is his Dharma? Is he row man or King?
Actually, I think if you study and qualify to be an Engineer your caste is Engineer.  And your brother who qualifies as a doctor is a Doctor by caste.  And Sahadeva babu is Karana by caste, being the highest administrator of the state. He is also Brahman by caste because he was also the Vice Chancellor a established University, OUAT. I am sure our Mr. Brahman will agree that Mr. Sahu is more Brahman as VC of OUAT than the temple panda who spits on the wall or 22 steps(baisa pahancha), misbehaves with young rural women and rudely demands money from the religious tourists or bayes praise for rich man who whips out a Rs. 500 note.
I agree with  Uma babu that multi ethnic societies are progresses  in society. And the problem is aptly stated here:
" that a fisherman's son studies in college and becomes an engineer, then he wont smell like a fisherman. The problem is that from childhood we seem to teach our children, that person is a lower-caste and such similar stuff. "
How do we get out of this? By actively being aware of the issues and by being rational.
I do not think there was any deeper meaning of marrying within the caste than keeping the structure such that mobility was made very difficult for some and privileges were defined by birth. We tend to forget that it was very brutal at times - remember Sambuka being killed in Ramayana for reading the scriptures? This behavior of the feudal society was universal - remember seeing "Roots"? The law was that if a slave ran away his ankle cord was amputed  but if he/she was found reading a book(bible) the punishment was death.
When the Zero sum game(the fall of one feudal family could only allow rise of another) of society changed with the advent of industry - west changed in 20th century. Our society is still in a semi-feudal state. Else why a lady software engineer has to  bring enough dowry with her to a spouse who is also a software engineer??
I can go on and on and on. The time has come to dump caste ism to the dustbin of history - one civilized way is to promote intercaste marriages. You will be probably shocked to know that 1st marriage of a harijon girl and Brahman boy happened in Bari ashram of Late Gopabandhu Choudhruy in 1935 or so. (see life of Gopabandhu Choudhury - Dipam Jyoti  by Late Gopinath Mohanty). From around this time Gandhiji refused to take part in any marriage where either groom or bride was not from a harijon caste.
The society has not progressed much in last 70 years, because those who followed did not keep up the spirit.
I am very happy that the discussion is in very good spirit and such erudite men as Sahadeva babu and others are participating - with excellent attitude and rationally approaching a very delicate issue.
Best wishes,
Sandip

-Jagabandhu Panda

Dear Members,

It is really nice to have such a discussion about inter caste marriage. Well, I would tell that the ambiguity is itself is the solution and that is totally contained in the discussion. Being a brahmin, I have already read The Gita several times. I have learnt that it is really a nice thing to follow to have a better life in this world. The Gita says that we are "agyan" like that of Arjun and the nature is the "gyani" like that of Srikrishna. "Dharma" means the duty and KARMA is determined as per the profession/duty of a person. It is what is described there. No one is small or big. It is determined by the attitude, karma and dharma. More over, the life is constituted of different phase. It is basically described there. And, one can have any kind of life one wants. If it is simple then he/she has to follow sanyasa yoga or bhakti yoga. If he/she follows gyani yoga it is not so easy and it takes time for some one to get mokhya. For a common man it is always to follow karma yoga through which one gets gyana and then would like to follow the right path and just set his/her mind in satya. Then he/she can go towards mokhya by understanding the ultimate goal. All these things are irrespective of castism. It is not only for brahmin or khyatriya but also for any one in the society. Brahmin is the one who has the knowledge of brahma. It does not mean that a person with holly threads (paita) bearing is the brahmin. If you minutely study from our society you would realise that the person who is really a good human and is in good profession is very well respected as compared to the others. If you know "brahma" then you must respect any human and any jiba or anything in which you realise it has god. Thus the most important thing is to realise what is good and what is bad, what is appropriate and what is not. It is not the caste that determines this. It is the level of knowledge and wisdom of a person which determines this. More over, the castism is based upon the past professions as discussed by people here. In recent periods also one must follow through professions rather than past system of castism. Accordingly the person is respected in the society but not based upon the caste.

 As far as marriage is concerned, it depends upon some of the factors like, personal prospective, family prospective, profession and also type of behaviour/attitude in general and for some people the caste as per the ancient vedic based society and also money and establishment in particular. However, it must be left to the individual and if required his/her family to decide about this rather than a society. The society must not impose him/her to marry a person from his/her caste if he/she is not happy with this. Life is to live not to die at each moment. If you are not happy as you are married against your wish then there is no meaning of it. 

Coming to the fertility or having kids; these things are completely biological and also to some extent personal thought or principle. It can happen irrespective of caste/religion. Thus, one should not argue based upon this factor.      

I hope I did not give much pain to every one.

regards,

-Jagabandhu

By  Gyana Ranjan Mishra

While respecting all the views, I feel It is one's KARMA that makes him/her known in the society. If a Brahmin indulge himself in low grade anti-social activities than he can't be considered as a Brahman. We, the human beings, made / creat this catagory to suit our need depending on our dominance in the society. (Dominance is a so called social factor which changes with the time. where ever we go, we will find it. It could be Men dominating Women, Father /Mother dominating the family affair, A caste dominating other caste in a society, a states / some state dominate the affair of a country, US dominance over other )

If the need to get married (caste does not a barrier), desire to marry someone (to be in love with someone from other caste) of a person is clear, so it is his ultimate goal/objective which gives him/her utmost satisfication on its attainment than anything else.

If a person after getting married, in his own caste, found living in hell than where is question arise to be in heaven. It is the matter of two loving, understanding heart that's makes a wonderful marriage life whether it is Intracaste or Intercaste.

I don't know how much you will agree with me?

Regards,

Gyana